Wendy Nash - how to meditate without even trying

Wendy Nash has a 4-year somatic psychotherapy diploma, her Bachelor of Psychology Honors thesis studied the effects of loving-kindness meditation on prosocial behavior and she’s been practicing loving-kindness and other meditations for almost 20 years.

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Music by Ian Hildebrand

Transcript

Arwen Bardsley: 0:00

All right, welcome, everybody really delighted today to have Wendy Nash on as my guest. Wendy has a four year somatic psychotherapy diploma. And she has also a bachelor of psychology and her honours thesis was where she studied the effects of loving kindness meditation on pro social behavior. Wendy has been practicing loving kindness and other meditations for almost 20 years, all of these things that she has done have been profoundly positive on Wendy's wellbeing, and relationships, and turned around the negatives of difficult early life experiences. So I'm so pleased to have Wendy here with us today to share her experiences that really become that life wisdom that it's so good for all of us to share with each other. So Wendy, I would love if we can just start with the you know, about you what, how did you get to be where you are now, as a meditation coach? What were the steps along the way, whatever you want to share? And, you know, I think it's really important for people to understand the journey that someone else has been on.

Wendy Nash: 1:22

Thanks, Arwen, thank you for the warm welcome. And it's always interesting to hear some of the introduction, just, you know, to hear it in somebody else's voice is is kind of very, very nice. And it makes me sound kind of more important perhaps than I am! Before I go on, I do want to just say that, I think it's really important to recognize the country I'm calling from. So because if we don't know where we've come from, we don't know where we are. And we don't know where we're going. So I'm calling from Gabby Gabby country in Queensland. And I just really want to honor the good work and care and thoughtfulness that the indigenous people have had on this land for 70,000 years, which unfortunately, we seem to have managed to trash in about 250 years. But I really want to honor that, that knowledge and way of being in the world. So that's where I like to start.

Arwen Bardsley: 2:33

Thank you so much. And I would like to reiterate that for the Wurundjeri people where I am on as well. Thank you for doing that. Wendy.

Wendy Nash: 2:40

It's my pleasure. And you asked about where I where I started. Basically, I did have a difficult early life, but I still managed to live in a few different countries. And I got married. And then I thought I had it all together. I thought I had all the answers. And then my ex husband left, he just couldn't he couldn't stay in the marriage, which was the right decision. But nonetheless, I was completely thrown for six. And I was seeing a psychotherapist, and she was very, very advanced Zen practitioner, and very experienced Zen practitioner, and she just said you need to chill. I was absolutely wound up like a clock. Very Prickly, very crisp, probably had anger, man. I mean, I know I had anger management issues. It was very difficult. I was very bitter and hurt because of a lot of very difficult things to come to terms with both my sister and my father died when I was a child and I had dropped out of school and I changed schools a lot. And it was just very chaotic and difficult growing up in that environment to gain a sense of sanity and normality. So I took I started. And when I started, I actually didn't even know what it meant to feel loved. So that's actually where I, I had no sense of what it meant to feel loved in a family. And that doesn't mean to say that my family didn't love me. It's just that there was this gap between how I felt and what was happening around me. And it was very hard for me to say that I was loved even though I was loved and and I couldn't experience that. So I was really angry. And I just needed to do something about that. And I found the loving kindness practices really good. There's a sort of standard practice that people have where you start reciting some phrases and for yourself, for your good friend, for a neutral person, a the difficult person, and then everybody. And I couldn't even begin to understand that I just didn't even feel love anywhere. So I had to really think about what does love mean? And what does it mean to? To wish someone Well? Yeah, I, I found that very confusing and difficult for a long time. But I kept going. So the first thing I did was, I trained myself to not be angry. So whenever I wanted to speak out and be angry, I just didn't like sitting on your hands, if you're going to talk, you know, if I was gonna say something sharp, I just didn't. And I was seeing a counsellor as well. So that that worked well. And then I came across a book about 2014 15, called awakening through love by John Makranksy. And he had this exercise, where I had to go back into my childhood, and look for any instances where somebody had been kind to me. So it might have been a relationship, which generally was not good. So maybe one of my siblings, but nonetheless, there was something that one of my brothers, and I just went, Oh, actually, we used to bicycle ride together. And that was really fun, you know. And so I sort of slowly increased my capacity to feel love, which was just so transformative, because I was very, very bitter and hurt. So I stepped through all these things and stopped being angry, started looking for more kindness in the world. So things like there's a practice, I think Pema Chodron who's a very well known Tibetan, Buddhist teacher, she's North American. She's, her father is actually from Melbourne. So, but she's raised in the US. And she called it cheerfulness practice, but I think it probably has another name. And basically, you just go through your day, and you look for any acts of kindness, or pleasantness in your day, so slightly different from the gratefulness practice for you know, I'm so grateful for this, I personally find that quite difficult, because there's something that I feel like I'm doing more, and I don't want to do any more, I just want to acknowledge what is there. So I, I found this practice, and I just go back to the previous day, so this time yesterday, and I think, Well, what was what was happening this time yesterday. And I was actually doing another interview. And I had a really lovely host, and he was really like you warm, and welcoming, and asking very thoughtful questions. And, you know, he, he was really keen to engage with me in a way that was really appreciative actually, of what I could share. So I just started there. And then I had some really yummy yoghurt, which my partner had actually bought the day before, on his way home. And to make sure that I had something yummy to eat during the day, or he had something like he went out of his way to the supermarket to bring me some food. And so just to acknowledge that other people are doing things for me, and two, I call it receive it receive gracefully, you know, to not just our you know, a partner, he's just went grocery shopping, and you know, who cares, but really go wow, he actually paid attention, did that and he wanted to make me happy. So that if you've just stepped through your day going like that actually makes the day so much more pleasant and enjoyable, but it might be I'm after this, I'm going to go for a walk. And I just I've got to go to the post office. But it's it's quite sunny and warm here. So just to feel the sun on my back into that sense that lovely warmth. So just looking for those sorts of things. So I found all these small practices really useful for making me feel less depleted. Less resentful, less angry, and So 20 years ago, I was very, very angry. And during the pandemic, when it broke, I was actually in Amsterdam on a meditation retreat. And it was March. And we were in silence. So I had no idea what had happened about the pandemic. And we were suddenly told, you've got to go home. And I looked around at the the other people in the room, and I went, I am not the angriest person here. That's not me. And I was talking with a friend who I'd only known for a couple of years. And he's an experienced psychotherapist of 30 years. So he's used to sort of sussing people very, very quickly. And I said, Well, I'm not the angriest person in the room. And he turned to me and he said, you angry? I thought, done it. I've done it. So that's where I started from. That's where I am. And that's been it, I was able to change. But it didn't change with that application. Like I did have to make that effort to think in this moment. What am I going to do? Am I going to lash out? In which case I'm just kind of keeping those neurons in that space? Or am I going to hold back? So that's, that's how I did.

Arwen Bardsley: 11:28

Ok ay,so there's a couple of things that come out from that, for me is firstly, with the anger, you know, where does it go? Like, you know, like that, that beautiful analogy of sitting on your hands, you know, I just worry about people not using the energy of their anger in so you know, getting rid of it, I guess, is the thing. How do you what would you say about that?

Wendy Nash: 11:59

You know, the thing about it? Is that it it rises up. And I don't, I guess squish it down. I let it I kind of I what I often do in my meditation practice, if I find that, you know, it sittings I've generally mostly I sit for an hour every day, I don't think this is by any stretch of beginner's meditation practice to, to sit for an hour every day. But I sit for an hour. And then often I'll be thinking about someone. And you know, I had an interaction with somebody the other day, and I thought oh I'm a bit humiliated by that, you know, and I was a bit hurt and a bit angry. And so what I'll do in that instance, is just say to myself, I feel angry. Yes, it's true. I feel angry. And simply allowing, acknowledging it's true. Then it goes through my body. I haven't suppressed it. I haven't ignored it. And nor have I lashed out. And so it, it just it means that I don't harm others. And it also means that don't harm myself. I just allow the truth of it to come forward.

Arwen Bardsley: 13:22

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because I just really worry about people suppressing anger, and that becoming, you know, physical or mental illness. So that's wonderful. Thank you so much for explaining that. And the other thing for me was, you talked when you were talking about the practice of recognizing kindness in those small ways going back through the last 24 hours, but then you said something about it you didn't feel like that was a gratitude practice. It kind of sounded like a gratitude practice for me can you differentiate the two

Wendy Nash: 13:59

I guess you know, there is quite it's quite popular the the gratitude practice but I feel like you know, I'm I'm so grateful that I have food and others don't you this there can be something a bit forced or so I'm, you know, I'm having a really tough time at work. Say, you know, people have really demanding jobs, demanding family situations. I'm so grateful that I'm in a loving family. I'm so grateful. My help my children are healthy. It can just feel a bit forced. I think sometimes that that's why I don't like that. But if you just go, Yeah, my my child came to me and did so in the interview yesterday. I did. There was the guy who had seen his son came to him and introduced he's like he's 15, Dad I've got I've got this girl and really sweet on and she plays basketball and the father and the son both play basketball. So they went down there. And he was just going, you know, now go to her and say she, she, she did that. And the sons going 'oh I can't I'm really shy, I feel really shy'. And there's something really beautiful about, you know, just recognizing that the relationship is so good between the father and son, that this most vulnerable experience of a teenage boy being sweet on a girl and feeling so gawky and awkward about that. And his the boy's willingness to share that with his father. Now, there's nothing to be grateful in there. It's just recognizing that there's beauty is an act of generosity on behalf of the son to show that

Arwen Bardsley: 16:01

it sure is on the part of the teenager. That's an amazing outcome. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. That's wonderful. So I know that you do a lot of work with leaders with CEOs and especially with founders of startups. And, as we talked about, before, we started recording that certainly not my target audience for this podcast and video series. But if you're out there, and you're taking this content in, thank you, I appreciate you being here, whoever you are, and whatever your job is. But, you know, I do feel that whatever we're doing with our lives, firstly, we've all worked in an organization with a leader or leaders, and we can, you know, have some understanding of what that those relationships mean, and how it's so important how that leader behaves to the organization and to you as an employee, or, or even, you know, in a more collegial relationship, anyone who's who's leading, it's so important. And we also know, obviously, that people leave organizations because they're leaving a culture they're not, you know, they're, they're kind of, they're not leaving the job. They're, they're leaving the culture, and really, the people and that stems from the leaders. So and also, my other thing is, well, we're all leaders to some extent in our own lives, even if it's just in your household, you're the leader. So just that whole concept of leadership and your expertise in that. I read your statement. It's the unknown psychological stuff, the leader avoids learning about themselves that gets played out in the office, or we can swap office for whatever situation it is. I'd just love to hear some more of you more from you about that.

Wendy Nash: 18:01

Okay, that's a really interesting, thank you for raising that. When you've been in an organization, so you've worked in other organizations, and it feels toxic? Well, I'll say that when I've worked in organizations, my observation is, you know, often the leader wants to be this great leader. But they're so busy focusing on themselves. They're actually not leading, they're actually they're not paying attention to the followers, so to speak, you can't lead without being a follower. But in any of your relationships, if you think about it. Have you had, I guess, the situation where I've thought I was providing good information, I was clear, I have an identity that I'm a good communicator, because I talk a lot. But it turns out, I'm not very good at listening. I'm just using this as an example because I know somebody who, who says, Well, I'm a good communicator, because actually, she just likes to talk a lot. She's very opinionated. And she's actually a terrible communicator. And it has real negative consequences on her her behavior, on on the people around her. So for instance, actually, that's a very common one where people feel that they have a particular identity of maybe being generous. And there is a saying, which says that people are the opposite. of who they say they are. And so my sense of say, say you have an under the I don't, I don't know if this is true, have an identity about being generous. And, and what it is doing is it's noticing, when you do that, when you are generous, but it's not noticing all the times when you're stingy. So, likewise, I'm a good communicator, is saying, well, these are all the times that I'm talking and I'm giving information. But it's not talking about the times when that particular person is speaks very harshly, and has terrible relationships. Actually, they're all you know, the one common denominator in all your relationships is you. And so, you know, that's, that's how it is. So I'm not sure I'm being very clear here. But basically, I, so for me, I have an identity that I'm a very angry person. And then people say, I, you're so warm and friendly and open. But because 20 years ago, I was a really angry person, I still see myself quite a lot like that. And so I'm always thinking, I was a bit angry there, I shouldn't be like that. And so I still think of myself as being very angry, even though a lot of most people don't see me in that way. So what I would say is, whatever you identify yourself, as you might identify as a good person, therefore you don't see where you're a bad person. If you identify yourself as a bad person, you don't see where you are a good person, because the identity is very stuck there. So what I would say is, before you had a career in something, you kind of had a corporate life, I think,

Arwen Bardsley: 22:04

yes, I did. Yep.

Wendy Nash: 22:06

Yeah. And so you saw yourself in a particular light. And then something happened. And you started to realize, actually, I'm not who I thought I was. And so when you're in that corporate life, did you start to see that people weren't reacting in the way that you had hoped? Because you saw yourself as having a particular trait or quality? And they weren't seeing that or or they were seeing something very, very different.

Arwen Bardsley: 22:46

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And even more, I mean, I would say, for me, it was more, you know, my kind of midlife crisis was more around personal life stuff and seeing myself as a, a wife and a homemaker. And, uh, you know, as well as, obviously, I had a job. But you know, and that I was really good at all of that, but that then my marriage broke down. So clearly, there were things that I was not good at, that I wasn't recognizing. And so I think you're saying, so even just on the most basic level, a good, someone who thinks they're a good leader, is not paying attention to all the ways in which they're not a good leader.

Wendy Nash: 23:37

That's right. Yeah. And that that's the same in the family. Yeah, I'm a good wife. I'm a good mother. Why do my children hate me? I'm good. I'm a good mother. You know, and you may have teenage boys, in which case, I think that's normal. I have an acquaintance and she's going, my son is saying these horrible, horrible things. To me. It's so unbearable, and she's a meditator. She said she's used to this and she, you know, it's just hard. At certain phases. There's no two ways about that. Yeah, but she also has to recognize maybe she's not so good at sometimes at saying she's a bit harsh or she is perhaps not as thoughtful as she could be.

Arwen Bardsley: 24:23

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. So relationships, we've already spoken a bit about them because they are key to everything. And I mean, I think you know, pretty common knowledge is that the key to making your relationships a place where you can grow and develop and thrive is communication. And I know that you've got a lot of skill in communicate the area of communication and teaching people about communicating well as as well. Can you I just would love because you have that, that skill I would love to just get. And I know it's a big topic, but I'd love to get your you know, kind of a basic 101. Any any tips you can you share with people about communication that might help them in their day to day lives?

Wendy Nash: 25:24

Sure, I think it's not nearly as complicated as we think. That's what I would say, like, we have an idea, I'm not a good communicator, or we have an idea. I'm a good communicator. And both of those are incorrect, because sometimes we're good at it and sometimes we're not. What I would say is that communication is more about listening than it is about speaking. But we need to, we need to, it's actually a lot about question syntax. So if you want to get an answer that is useful, meaningful, thoughtful, you've got to structure your sentences with the correct sentence. So say, for instance, you, someone comes to you and says, I'm having a really bad day, instead of going into the mode of, well, you know, have you slept properly? Have you eaten properly? Or what happened or something like that? Maybe what happened, but that has a slightly hard edge to it. But maybe something like? So tell me more about what happened today. That opener, tell me more about really starts to open it out. It's a very loose general question. And it's a very good question, to begin a conversation. And the way you start a conversation is the way you end the conversation. So if you start with Well, what did you do today? Then, if you had, you know, like, why didn't you fix it? Whatever. A harsh startup. This is. John Gottman, the Gottman Institute, this is their thing. You start harshly you end harshly someone slams the door. But if you start with, so tell me more about what's going on for you or what happened in the day, that really gives a lot more possibility for curiosity. And then, I would say that always ask a question, which begins with what? Or how? What were the specific interactions that you had that made you feel x y Zed? What was it like to be in that situation? Just to start with what? Or how, how did that unfold? What's your sense of it? If if you if by asking would you say that's coming back to me? Would you say that's because you weren't very good at communicating? Then that says it's very loaded? And it's actually Well, I'll tell you all about communication. So do you think is also a very, it's also a closed question, and it's loaded. And another one is to be is to not do is to ask is or are. So don't start it question with is or are. Is that because you did x y Zed? Are you saying this happened? So it's good to just keep it really, really open and then finally you know, we've done a lot about paraphrasing and emotions and things like that. But and and active listening where you go into a feeling - oh it sounds like you feel angry about this and but I find in a workplace that's not appropriate. And and I don't always think it's very appropriate. I can I think it can feel a bit intrusive, particularly if you have kids, too. It's not everybody wants to. It's not always the right time. But what I found is this question and it's a book. I got it out of a book by Laurence Alison and Emily Alison called Rapport. They do criminal interviews, and social services interviews. And what they use is, it sounds like you care about. So in your interview so far, what I've heard is that it sounds like you really care about providing useful hints and tips for your listeners, you want the audience to feel that they're included and accepted. And that even if you have it, you have something that is relevant to the workplace, that you take it into your home life and vice versa. So I can, I can hear that there's a lot of thoughtfulness and experience and openness in your interviews. But so just starting with what I hear you care about. And then the person just feels really deeply heard. Very interesting. I thought that was I thought that that one sentence was one of the I think, one of the most useful, I guess it is a question because it says, What are you care about is this, and then the silent? Is that true? is sitting there and a person has the capacity to come up. But really, it's as simple as that. It's not complicated, but it takes practice, because I was working with a client last week, and he's an elderly gentleman, he's in his 70s. And his tendency is, do you think and would you say and did this and what about that and have that, and it was very kind of perfunctory, and I didn't enjoy the conversation. And we had, I was very difficult to retrain him, he was a journalist as a young man. And we get stuck in our conversational habits. So just doing that is really opens it out. And it just takes a lot of the tension out of a lot of the accusation. And the other question is to never ask is why why did you do that? It's, it's quite harsh. So it's not I think it's not more complicated than that.

Arwen Bardsley: 32:18

So as an example, then, so let's do the quintessential parent talking to the kid after school. And the question is always how was school? And then of course, you always get the good, or you just get a grant or whatever. So you might say, Tell me about your day at school? Or something like that. Correct?

Wendy Nash: 32:40

I heard Yeah. I did hear somebody say choose one particular subject. Right. Let me tell me what happened in maths today. Yeah, yeah.

Arwen Bardsley: 32:51

And then, so then if the kid goes, Okay, or, you know, oh, I didn't go to math today. And then of course, you would say why. So what would you say instead?

Wendy Nash: 33:08

Oh, what was happening for you? That didn't, yeah, what was happening for you? Yeah.

Arwen Bardsley: 33:16

Okay, so can you just reiterate those steps again? So what do we what do we start our sentences with?

Wendy Nash: 33:22

So I think first question is, so you've said, We can do a bit of a role play here, you know, where you can just ask me about school today. So yeah, tell me what happened at school today. You know, in maths, so tell me more. Yep. That's really useful if someone's got a problem. I don't know how to do my science project dadada. You know, it's all it's all due tomorrow. And I don't know anything. I haven't read the books on either or So tell me more about what you need to produce for the, the assignment. Tell me more. And such an opener, it's such an inviter. A question that starts with what a question and starts with her. What exactly do you need to do? How are you going to get that information? Yep. And what I hear you care about is that you might fail you. You want to do a good assignment.

Arwen Bardsley: 34:35

Yep.And not why haven't you done it before? Now?

Wendy Nash: 34:38

What help is that? Yeah. How is that going to be a positive? The past has gone handy with that. Yeah.

Arwen Bardsley: 34:56

Great.

Wendy Nash: 34:58

I just want to say I don't have children

Arwen Bardsley: 35:02

I mean, but you know, also, as we keep saying, you know, you can apply that in any, in any area of life. It's just, that's always one that, you know, whenever I'm getting together with friends who are also parents of teenagers, it's always that, you know, well, they don't tell me anything. And we'll probably a lot of the reason is that you're not asking those open ended questions.

Wendy Nash: 35:24

Actually, that book Rapport by Laurence and Emily Alison, she, she gives a lot of examples of how to talk to your teenager, because she does a lot of social work. And she's done a lot with relationships that are very strained between a teenager and a parent. And she just says, This is how you do it. And she says, this is the kind of character you're looking, you're actually speaking to, this is who you are, these are the strength of the styles of communication. And this is who you're talking to. And these are the strengths and weaknesses of this type of character. And she gets you to mix, mix and match. So you can target you can be really clear about who, who you're speaking to, so that it will satisfy their need.

Arwen Bardsley: 36:09

Yeah, great. Thank you so much, that was so valuable. Now, I did say I wanted to focus this interview on meditation. So I'd like to circle back around to that. I know you did start with talking about your first experiences with the loving kindness meditation. But I'd love and obviously, you spoke about the fact that it helped you to manage your anger, let go of your anger. What are the benefits have you had? Or what other? You know? What are the reasons why people should start a meditation practice, I guess, is really what I'm wanting to get at?

Wendy Nash: 36:54

Yeah, I think it's really beneficial for most people. I'm always a bit cautious that it is the panacea for everything. And more, you know, it's just not for everybody. Some people really don't want to, it's not their thing. They don't have the, the desire or anything like that, you know, I just, it's not, it's not for everybody. So I think if somebody has a yearning to do it, then, you know, that's, that's that. What was the next part of the question?

Arwen Bardsley: 37:26

Oh, well, just Yeah. Why? Why? Why wouldn't someone start a meditation practice?

Wendy Nash: 37:34

So it starts to give you some options. So by because I was meditating, I had a choice about when I interacted with someone, whether to lash out whether to walk away, or whether to hold it? And so gives I think it's, that's what I liked the most about it. Is that it? It gives you just more options about how you want to respond in any moment.

Arwen Bardsley: 38:15

And how does it do that?

Wendy Nash: 38:18

Yeah, so what happens is that you get, how would I explain that? What happened? I have a sort of a cheat question I've got this is what I do. This is major part of my practice. But you can do this, if you're working, walking, going for a walk or going for a run or cleaning the house? It's a really good question. If you have a problem, that you've got, like an interaction, which is difficult, or you're trying to solve an issue with work, or you've, you've got a project you're working on, is to to bring that to mind. And then say, What am I not seeing about this? Just to ask yourself, What am I not seeing about this? And then just go about the the run or the cleaning, or whatever it is, and the answer will arise. And often there's something about if I'm identifying very strongly with a particular position, then it's very hard to see what else is going on. And I can't almost hear my own voice because I've got some really strong opinion about it. So there's something about owning an emotion that often arises in meditation, which means that once I've owned it, so a bit like the anger, instead of automatically lashing out to somebody and being horrible. I don't feel that same pressure to respond in that way to react in that way. I start to have a bit of an idea that I can respond in one way, or I can respond in another way, I start to have that choice. So I'm hoping I'm, I've sort of been clear.

Arwen Bardsley: 40:14

And so what are you doing in your when you're sitting down in your meditation practice? How is that? You know, what will? I guess it's really, what are you doing? And yeah, so how does that stuff arise for you?

Wendy Nash: 40:30

Yeah, it's an interesting thing. So when, when you meditate in the beginning, people go, Wow, you know, my mind is really crazy, I don't, I can't meditate, because my mind is really crazy. And it's not that those thoughts didn't exist before, it's just that it's the first time you've heard them, and they kind of are really strong and have a lot of physical hold on the body. So the first thing to do is to start to train to come back to the breath, or whatever it is. So if the practice is, for instance, for me to look for anything kind in the world, that's happening in my world, then if I start going on to, uh, well, he said that she said that she said that, he said, I can't do that. And then they would do this and dadada, instead of going down that conversation, I just can come back, I start to train my mind that actually, this is not something I have to attend to, in this moment, I actually start to have a choice. And it does take a long time. It's quite hard to explain how that is. But yeah, it's it, it's taken me a long, long time to be able to see the wisdom of that practice of going ah. Because I always want to solve every problem, you know, you're never going to solve all the problems. That's where I've got to now. And actually, about that whirring mind, my, my observation about the working mind is that often it's about a relationship that feels doubtful in some way, we don't feel properly connected to that person. And there can often be some disappointment in there. And there's often an emotion, so if you have like something Oh, and I walked down the street this way. And then that guy, he looked at me really funny. And then well, then there was that really other scary time in my life, and, and then, oh, my God, when I was in Paris, and something like that happened, and, and it seems like that's one story, but there's four different stories in there. There is a common emotion to all that so often in those big where I got off into the galaxy, where I've suddenly ended up, you know, who knows where, often at that point, where as soon as I realized I'm far away, I go, what is the common emotion to all these thoughts? And then I just come back to whatever practice it is that I'm doing. And that by looking at the common emotion, and then I go, I feel afraid, yes, it's true. I feel afraid, then I own it. Then the story abates then I've integrated the emotion, then I next time I start to think about, well, I'm walking down the street, whatever, or I feel a bit afraid. I start to feel I have a bit more choice about it. Because I don't I don't feel so physically pulled by it or something.

Arwen Bardsley: 43:41

Yeah, triggered by it. Yeah. And when you say that you're saying to yourself, I feel angry. Yes. It's true. I feel angry. Is it important to be saying that out loud, or that's not necessary? It can just be Yep. Okay.

Wendy Nash: 44:00

Just internally is fine. It's just, it's really just its own, its sole purpose is for each person to integrate the emotions that remain, I guess, slightly alien to oneself. That's what I would say. And it's, it's there is this, we don't want to say, ah I am angry? We don't want to own it. And that's actually what's being enacted, because we're, there's a part of the mind, which is saying you need to attend to this. And there's another part of the mind, which is, but I'm not like that. Only horrible. People don't like that. I'm a good person. And so it's sort of joining up those two worlds together. I guess that's that's the way that I would put it.

Arwen Bardsley: 44:41

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yes. And so you have spoken a bit about you know, that you can even do these kinds of practices while you're going for a walk or doing whatever. Because the the thing people always say is You know, I've already got, you know, a list a mile long of things I have to do. And meditation is just one other thing to fit in. So I mean is that your key tip around that is to try and bring in some of those practices while you're just doing something else.

Wendy Nash: 45:15

Yeah, so I'm a great believer that meditation shouldn't take anything, any more time out of your day, I think people are. I mean, if you're going to meditation center or something like that, and you're really doing it, that's a different cohort, a different need, there's some something else going on. And I really, I do think sitting in a group is really beneficial. But with a pandemic, that's not always possible. With kids family commitments, it's just not always possible. And sometimes we too knackered to go, you know, we don't yet have means it's at night, and we don't want to be out and dark, we don't have a car, something like that. So I definitely don't think that's the case there are because of the pandemic, a lot of online groups now. So that's always possible. But basically, there's a ton of meditation practices, which give you a sense of kind of coming back to where you are in this moment. So things like as you walk towards the car, just noticing what the what is happening in the feet. That's one, you know, if you're wearing high heels, what is it like to kind of walk on high heels and what is happening in the body in that experience, Sharon Salzberg is very well known meditation teacher and loving kindness. She says, as you touch the steering wheel, or the key, or whatever it is, when you're starting the car, she probably people don't have keys anymore that they are because I've seen them, okay, I don't have a car, but I've seen their own cars, which don't have keys anymore. And so as you, as you sit down and touch, just notice the sensation of the steering wheel on your hand, and the muscles that you're using. And no one is so busy, they can't take three seconds to do that. So that's another one. One of my favorites, which I think is really good for people who are completely frantic, and you've got cleaning to do and you've got this to do and everything else is around the house, there's a really good meditation practice called leave no trace. So if you make a cup of tea, instead of when you finish that cup of tea, you just put it on the sideboard, you wash it up, you put it on the sideboard, you get the tea towels, you dry it up, you put it in the cupboard. And then you're not left with a pile of dishes. And so that's a really good one as an initial. And what that does is it also trains your mind to go to here into any resentment, why am I doing this, why don't want to clean up and I'm too busy. And you can hear all that. And then it's like, I feel very resentful yeah it's true I feel very resentful. And that starts to ease that. And then I started with just doing the dishes like that. And then I after brushing the teeth wiping down the basin, going to the toilet, using you know, just wiping down everything after the shower, wiping down the shower so that it's clean, and then you don't get the mold build up. And if you just do that, every time you do something when it comes to the weekend, or or, you know, the house is always in a pretty good state of how it is. And then you don't get to the weekend and think I've got now got to spend two hours cleaning the house with gritted teeth. I am so grateful for my house. Yeah, you know, it's most of it's done. So that that's another one which I find really good. I do think that you can if you sit in bed, and just put your phone on airplane mode, and set a timer for 60 seconds, just to feel the sensations of the breath. That's that. And the other thing that I would say is also that when you when those thoughts where all goes, you know, and he said that she said that she said that he said and start going, you know, and then I walked down the street and did that. It's actually in this moment that those memories and thoughts are arising so often. I had a client the other day who's saying that? My meditations they're really I'm striving and I'm really I'm remembering all these fearful arguments. And I was really afraid and seeing and it's like, are you in a time where you're fighting a lot? Do you feel afraid now? Do you feel angry now? And he said, Yes. So all those memories were just coming, reminding him of earlier times, when he felt like what he felt now. And simply by acknowledging, I feel afraid, I feel angry, I feel frustrated, that then stops all those past memories kind of coming back. So I hope I've answered the question

Arwen Bardsley: 50:37

beautiful. And for people who do want to, you know, sit down and have some meditation time separate to everything else. Firstly, how often? And how long would you recommend for someone starting? And then secondly, do you recommend particular apps because I know there's 1,000,001 Meditation apps out there? I personally, I love Insight Timer. But yeah, I'd love to get your take on just how if somebody does want to, you know, have a have a set practice, how they go about that to start with?

Wendy Nash: 51:17

I think when you're starting, I think the apps are really useful, because the mind is very crazy. And it takes a while to get the physiology of the body just down, you know. And I think if you can manage to try to do that every day, that's great. And I always, always think it's really good to start with the shortest meditation possible. So just because it takes so long to get into the habit of it, you know, it's very hard to, and I actually, first time I meditated, and this is really common, I did it, I went to a Buddhist center, and I did meditation day. And then it was another three to five years before I did it again, I just wasn't ready. So I definitely don't think it's good to hurry. I think Insight Timer is really good. It can be quite, there's a lot going on on that one, so, that's the only thing I would say is like, you kind of almost need to know which teacher you're going to go for in order to, to choose that one. But there are some really amazing teachers on that one. And some teachers that I think are very well regarded that would be useful for your audience is Kristin Neff, who's a lot about self compassion. She does a lot on self compassion. So I think for your audience, which is people who are super busy, I think that's her and expecting a lot from themselves. That can be she's really, really good. So I would recommend her.

Arwen Bardsley: 52:45

She's on Insight timer?

Wendy Nash: 52:48

Yeah, I believe so.

Arwen Bardsley: 52:49

Yeah. Okay.

Wendy Nash: 52:50

And if she's not, she's definitely around

Arwen Bardsley: 52:52

Just Google her. Yeah.

Wendy Nash: 52:54

Yep. And that's Kristin with a K. The other one is also headspace, is highly recommended. They're a little it's a little bit expensive. But I have I have a friend and he, he did it. He did the course. And then he said, Now what do I do, I say go back to the beginning and do it again. And then go do it again. And just keep repeating. And he kept going with it for about three years just doing repeat and repeat and repeat. And he was having a really bad time at work. And he said it just completely made him sane. There's another one called waking up. But I think that's a bit more Buddhist-y

Arwen Bardsley: 53:35

it is.

Wendy Nash: 53:36

And, and it's much more about enlightenment. So it's good, really interesting talk. So perhaps if you have, you're in hospital, you've got cancer or something like that. That's actually a really good one to go for. Yeah, so I think they're definitely useful ones but start small. Totally. And the most important thing is to do it daily. Yeah,

Arwen Bardsley: 54:01

right. Okay, so that was gonna be my next question is, you know, should you be try? So are you saying, you know, like, you're better off to do five minutes daily than to do 15 minutes? A few times a week?

Wendy Nash: 54:14

Yeah. And I would even say, even if you can just find one minute. Yeah, don't even bother getting up to five minutes. Five minutes is a lot for a beginner. One minute is plenty. It's absolutely plenty. I have I have a client and she was at one minute. And then she went on to then she's stuck it to for about a month. And, you know, I've got a few clients and they can just about make it to four-five minutes. And they've been doing it for maybe three months. And I coached them every week or fortnight, or how to navigate that process. It's a big if people can't manage to meditate, you know, like right off the bat. That would be completely normal.

Arwen Bardsley: 54:54

Yes, yeah. Yeah, it is a practice. So that means we have to practise it. Okay. All right. That's great. And do you have meditations that people can access?

Wendy Nash: 55:10

Not yet. I have been a bit slack about. I've got to do them. But one of the things I want to do is to get the John Makransky's because I think there's so fantastic, but John Makransky is on Insight Timer anyway, so you can get it straight from the horse's mouth. So he does them. No, I haven't. There's so many people who do really good meditations Yeah, and I yeah, I'm qualified as a meditation teacher. And I do leave them with some clients. They're very tailored to the specific person and need and, and whatever. But generally, I find that I always encourage people to find the one that works for them. Because everybody, what works for me is loving kindness meditation, a particular kind, that's not necessarily going to be what's gonna work for you.

Arwen Bardsley: 55:59

Yeah, that's so true. What works for me is yoga. Nidra. Yeah, so we are all different. So just before we finish, Wendy, please do share, you know what, what you're what exactly your services are that people might be interested in, following you up on and also how they can do that where they can

Wendy Nash: 56:19

Thank you, I do want to say thank you very much for find you. being a really warm, kind host. It's very lovely to be in this interview, it feels very spacious. It's the first time I've been in an interview where I've done a few now, where I've just felt, oh, I can be really spacious here. So I want to really thank you for really reflecting it in and making that experience possible.

Arwen Bardsley: 56:48

So thank you, that's a beautiful kindness that I will reflect on for the next 24 hours at least.

Wendy Nash: 56:58

So my business is called kindly Cut the crap, Dot com. So it's just kindlycutthecrap.com

Arwen Bardsley: 57:02

love it There's no au. And that's because I'm a very straight to the point kind of person. And I also like double entendre. So I like to have double meanings of words and kindly means to be kind and it means please, so and I'm. So I just feel like and it's a name that no one ever forgets. So that's how I've got a brand new website, and the contact box wasn't working yesterday. So I do apologize. People don't have the possibility of using that. If not, you can email wendy@kindlycutthecrap.com that part is working. And I also have a LinkedIn account so there you are. I keep my social media really low. And LinkedIn is Wendy Nash?

Wendy Nash: 57:57

There's a couple of Wendy Nash's, so don't get the wrong one!

Arwen Bardsley: 58:02

Find the right one.

Wendy Nash: 58:03

Find the right one. I'm actually in Queensland, I must update my LinkedIn profile. Is that because I've just moved obviously. But basically what I do in terms of what what services do I provide, people have, I want to learn meditation, and then I just coach them to navigate what arises. So and and how to set up a daily practice. That's what I do. So I don't necessarily guide meditation.

Arwen Bardsley: 58:30

Yeah, right.

Wendy Nash: 58:30

I help them navigate the challenges that arise.

Arwen Bardsley: 58:34

Okay. Yeah, sounds wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time, Wendy, and all your wisdom. I'm really grateful that you were able to give that to us today. And it was really wonderful to meet you.

Wendy Nash: 58:51

It's been delightful. Thank you so much, Arwen.